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Comments

josh

dude. your 5 descriptions at the top are excellent. especially the sustainable part. those are some really good indicators and are reflective of the larger culture as well as critiques of it. by having those, you are reflecting the growing change in leadership style and substance. while at the same time critiquing those who still continue to be a part of the old model.

nice insights.

Makeesha Fisher

thank you for sharing this. As someone leading a missional community that wants to grow up to be like grace (hehe), I have often looked to your community for inspiration. Many of the communities we read about are almost as young as ours so it's nice to see something like this that has sustained itself for so long - i.e. you're living it and it's so great to see.

we plan to come your way next fall and hope to visit to actually get up close and personal with what you're doing there.

That new Anglican track is really interesting, good for them!

maggi

hi jonny, interesting post, thanks. how do you tease out further the idea that you don't have any paid/ordained leadership, and yet you count yourselves as an Anglican congregation of St Mary's. Doesn't that imply a neccesary link? in other words, does it mean that Grace can only function as well as she does because she can lean on the structure that supports her? (I don't mean to imply parasitic, as I know the relationship betw. Grace and St M's is a mutual one; only to tease out the reality of the situation in terms of leadesrhip models - how would transfer, for instance, to a setting where there was no "host" church?)

Peggy

Hi, Jonny,

Your name was flying all over the place at Andrew's Shapevine Happy Hour today...and they declared that everyone should know Jonny...so I'm stopping by!

I am looking to move away from the clergy/laity divide in my sphere (being ordained myself) and happily heard someone somewhere recently who said that being baptized into Christ was our ordination into ministry. I resonated with that...priesthood of the believers, and all, such a part of my background.

It is challenging, however, with the different kinds of churches and their liturgical structures and beliefs.

Be blessed.

Drew

Jonny,
thanks for doing this. i find your post very informative and challenging.

could you explain how creating environments is different from doing stuff? I really like your description of environmental but being raised in and working at a church with strong top down leadership, i am struggling to see the delineation between the two.

In middle school ministry, where i work, i often feel i create environments where i both did something for the environment to exist and the middle school students do something within it.

jonny

thanks for the comments everyone. i should say that this was a rather hasty post on a busy day (having agreed to do it i ended up furnituyre removing and then having a planning meeting). so please don't see it as my definitive view on ordination and leadership! that's partly why i chose to just tell the story of grace and preface it by saying that it's not the ideal or necessarily transferable but i like it.

maggi, yes it works because we are located within the anglcian structure in a parish church. we want to be related in rather than separate. if we were starting out as a separate church community i guess we'd either look to find somewhere or seek relational connection/blessing and explore what we needed to do to make that work. you have to work with your context. that's why i am supportive of people going the ordained route and those that are not - it just depends where you stand. with different circumstances i appreciate that we might have gone down a route of encouraging someone to be ordained (though i think they would play a different role to most and not be salaried) or of leaving or of a number of other options.

i do fear that emerging church has set up quite a number of churches that are too expensive to run. they seem predicated upon having a full time person. funding exists for a few years start up but the church can't sustain a full time salary beyond that. so i am very interested in ways of doing things that start small and cheaply and don't have that crisis.

drew i suggest you read the chapter by sally morgenthaler published by emergent (i can't remember the name - emergent conversations or something). that summarises many of the same ideas i have been having about leadership. and the book organic community below explores the idea of environmentalists - see a couple of blog posts back for some choice quotes. another way of saying it would be the web 2.0 idea that the community is the content so the role of leadership is to encourage and help create an environment where healthy community grows as opposed to doing stuff like teaching and preaching and training and leading and discipling etc - nothing wrong with those things per se but i hope you see what i mean.

here's a list contrasting CEO with catalyst from the starfish and the spider book which is a good example of how different instincts about leadership can be:
CEO | catalyst
boss | peer
command and control | trust
rational | emotionally intelligent
powerful | inspirational
directive | collaborative
in the spotlight | behind the scenes
order | ambiguity
organising | connecting

becky

I confess I was the one who kept bringing up Jonny during my interview with Andrew Jones today on ShapeVine - those of us in the States who are liturgically inclined, except for Karen Ward (COTA) and a few others, no one is doing what's happening at Grace or putting out the kind of materials you find at Proost UK. This UK ethos really resonates with many liturgical types and it's exactly the kind of ethocs that the US Episcopal Church desperately needs as it implodes.

Mike

Priceless - we have been passively doing a similar model close to where you are. Not out of choice but just that this is how it has organically developed. Reading you putting what is happening into print is almost a surprise that this syle of leadership is emerging. As part of the Anglican Church I appreciate being tied to something so historically solid but with the freedom of change, perhaps change to how the early church would have operated?

John L

Terrific post, jonny. What a remarkable community you've established there in UK. I hope to visit one day.

A model of "paid clergy" seems absent from the NT. And though I'm not well studied in NT times, the earliest "paid" leader in Christendom seems to come along about 50 years after Christ's generation. I think you're on the right track.

Tom Allen

Some interesting and inspiring ideas from the practice of Grace but I think there some important unaswered questions about ecclesilogy and one or two hang-ups to be challenged in some of the other comments.
Firstly there are actually two priestly functions which would be missing if there were not a priest present - the first you have noted as presidency at the Communion/Eucharist, but you would also be missing within the Anglican tradition some-one commissioned to forgive sins.
You also quite clearly have a formal leader - he is your local vicar - and I suspect that there are actually informal leaders who exercise similar roles to formal clergy within most congregations - in a similar pre-ordination role it was clearly pointed out to me that I excercised that role within a democratic and participatory group - it was just not openly ackowledged. Many early alternative worship groups came a cropper by exposing such values but failing to realise what was really happening - not least at NOS.
the issue of paid leaders/clergy is frequently misunderstood as in two of the comments - in the Anglican tradition the priest quite specifically is the person appointed from outside by the Bishop to represent and be the link with the wider church so a certain set-apartness is an essential element and not something to be avoided.

The paid element is at a level so that clergy can concentrate their full energies without being concerned concerned with earning their living - it also has biblical links with Jesus commission to be fishers of men (sic) - he drew the first disciples from their occupation in order to free them from the task - and called them back from their occupation after the Resurrection - it is reasonable to assume that they were 'paid' in the sense that the wider Christian community provided for them.

thanks for an inspiring post about your practice/

Tom

steve

i think that structural questions around paid/unpaid can hide the real questions which emerging leadershp which IMHO are around
a) the future of God being among God's people (I've just done a post on this actually on my blog, around practices of leadership-in-community).
b) making plain the dark sides of leadership.

All groups have leaders. to not name them (whether as Vicar or anyother way), seems to me to be dishonest. Even in our smaller more adhoc Godatwork groups at Opawa we have titles like "keeper of conversation" or "organiser" to acknowledge that these roles are essential leadership functions.

i think for the sake of safety in spiritual formation, we need to be asking worse case scenarios: if allegations of abuse or financial mismanagement were made at say Grace, or Opawa, or any spiritual group how would these processes be heard justly. you don't need a "vicar" for that, but if the dark sides of leadership are not named, them the powerless will inevitably be f*cked over by the powerful, who are often made even more powerful by the absence of titles.

in terms of pay, i recall Steve Collins lamenting the lack of time given to stuff at grace a few years ago. one way to give time is to "buy time" ie give the gifted people space to use their gifts. that for me is still part of future of god among gods people cos it acknowleges the plurality of gifts.

in the end i think the NT gives a whole range of models - paid (Jesus, Acts leaders supported) and unpaid (Paul had moments of tentmaking) and metaphors (see the 6 in 1 Corinthians 3 and 4). i think that range is deliberate. no one size fits all. rather how best to participate in the unique corporate imago dei given to your context. it's great to see how that works at grace. thanks jonny.

steve

jonny

thanks again for comments everyone. i am at pains to stress that i am not suggesting grace as an ideal model to be used and translated everywhere else. but i like it. it works for where we are.

it's interesting that technically the vicar is our leader tom - paul roberts makes a long post on similar lines - http://alternativeworship.org/paulsblog/?p=194 . in that case he is a model of leadership in absentia - gives permission, but doesn't ever come, doesn't ask what we are doing, and meets with us maybe twice a year to catch up (initiated by us rather than him). i guess he trusts us?

it would be interesting to see what happened if that changed. we did have a situation of conflict with the st marys many years ago when the church was between vicars when we were read the riot act by a slightly power hungry curate over liturgies we could use etc. we contacted the bishop and got a letter of permission giving us the right to use liturgies that were experimental and the pcc relaxed and the curate left. of course it is possible at that point that the church could have clamped down on us and i suspect we would just have left and found a home elsewhere. or met in the pub over the road (which might be a good idea anyway of course).

i think my most interesting thoughts about leadership are less about paid/unpaid ordained/unordained and more about how leadership functions - i.e. things like it creates an environment of participation and gift exchange rather than dependency (which invariably is the default position of the clergy/laity construct that seems hard to break whatever you try). steve we do have and name leadership in grace for the reasons you say. we have a small group, an ethos to guard and people take lead (we call curation thanks to mark pierson) role in service planning and so on. but the leadership is still distributed and that's healthy i think.

my concern about paid leadership is that a number of emerging churches get initial funding, have someone full time, but after 3 years there is not enough strength in the communtiy to support a leader and lots of energy goes into trying to raise money. it would better to start small in a way that is more sustainable. do the full time thing later if it grows to a size requiring it.

andrew

As a point of curiosity, how do things like "pastoral care" happen at Grace? Is it more about an event or common meeting, do people receive counselling, etc. from priests elsewhere, or do members of the community take on the role of care in walking alongside? Is it one of these, all of these, none of these?

andrew

jonny

it's a small enough community that care happens relationally - care in walking alongside as you out it. and i think it's pretty good... i like it that it's that way rather than the professional pastor who cares. again that is the same problem of dependency - an expectation of an expert leader who will provide for my needs especially if i am paying his or her salary.

steve

jonny, i think your point about sustainability is valid, but also contextual. i suspect (could be wrong), that london attracts a range of creatives. that means that grace has people with good jobs elsewhere and so your unpaid decentred thing works grand.

but, i doubt that much would happen if this model was used, say in a region, at somewhere like telford. there you might need to invest in paying someone hoping to kickstart something over time.

(which then comes back to my comment above about leadership-in-community, ie that the ideal in both contexts, is to lead in a way that builds community)

in other words, your model is perfect for your london (capital city) context. thoughts?

steve

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