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Ben Edson

Thanks for the post. Can pioneers take contol and remain connected to the insitution? Mummy church likes being mummy church as she remains in control. I suspect if some pioneers took full control they'd be given up to foster care...

I think this is about relationship and telling pioneers to take control could be percieved as washing their hands of them. At the same time the pioneer needs to develop adult relatsionship with the parent church to enable long term sustainabililty.


Karlie

Isn't it more likely that many pioneers would struggle with giving up independence rather than wanting to be dependent? But could you only remain connected to the institution by relationships and nothing else? How much does being ordained take you beyond that and then what is lost and what is gained? How much can people become a transformative presence within structures without giving up their very different perpsective on and approach to things?
Too many questions?!!

Becca

Might see you around our lovely city then, Johnny! Woohoo! It's the most bestest time of the year in Radelaide... hope your time here is hearty!

Following the above comments... I wonder if there is any room for an *interdependent* relationship between traditional/ institutional church and the emerging/ pioneering movement? Would it be possible eventually, or will people on either side feel too compromised? But maybe that's the path towards unity: all sides holding on to some things and letting go of others. I guess for me it comes down to loving each other ("it's as simple and as difficult as that", as the prophet Leunig said)... 'cause that's um, the whole point of following Jesus... isn't it? It's the *way* we do that that seems to get in the... way. Of the Way. Hmm. Better sleep on that.

Karlie

We've never met Becca (would be so much better if we were connecting face to face rather than in blogland) but thanks for the gentle reminder of the simple Way. It's helped free me from analysis paralysis.

Maybe the real battle for pioneers (who have too often been pushed out to the edges via some rejection and misunderstanding) is with trusting again and overcoming cyncism and loneliness...all potential stumbling blocks to selfless love and healthy interdependence. Have lost my 'way' in all those things recently. Thanks again for some directions home

Pippa

I have discovered two things about being a pioneer - one is that if you are one, you can't help doing it and the second is that it hurts! Karlie is right - whoever overcomes cynicism and loneliness in order to offer selfless love, has triumphed. Jesus seems to know a lot about this.

Karlie

Thanks Pippa and its so good to conclude with Jesus in clear view as the best example...


Phil Wood

Jonny, your post touches on something I've been wrestling with for a while now. I don't think that pressing for wider recognition of 'ordained' ministry in the emerging movement is the right way to go. The lay/clergy divide has done untold damage to genuine mutuality in the church. I would hate to think the same apartheid is replicating itself in Post-Christendom.

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