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spencer

Jonny,

I am very interested in your findings and the on going conversation about alt education. I am also looking forward to your insights next week on the ETREK conference call facilitated by Barry Taylor. (ETREK is our attempt to evolve learning)

Spencer

craig

thanks jonny. this is enormously helpful for what we are exploring in South Australia.

tony

how did it feel jonny? you don't give too much away in your post...
i think much will depend on the selectors and those with power in the system.
but it does look promising.
i was just talking about it the other night to the guy who was my head selector at my conference.

steve Hollinghurst

when i get the time I'll read the dwonload, thanks Jonny.

but have seen a number of the document on the way and have some big problems. largely that CofE are adding pioneer mission stuff to the criteria rather than recongising they are looking for people who may not fulfill the trad criteria for ordination, but be a toally new brand of priest. trouble is that CofE has enshrined a Christendom model into its understanding of priesthood and has long ago given up recognising that the body of christ requires different callings. it notiaonally accepts 'Lay callings' but in reallity often only accepts and certainly only ordains pastors. we need pastors but we need people who may not have a pastoral bone in their body to do what the church is seeking people to do. unless the churchs starts to recognise differnt and distinct callings in minsitry this will not change. pioneers don't need additional criteria they require different criteria, and differnt training.

glad you are in the loop Jonny, the loop needs you!

Mark Beach

Jonny

Thanks for this, I was aware of the paper but had not read it. My major concern is the bit that says that the exisiting selection criteria still and apply and all that the paper does is propose additional ones.

The church has a noose rounds its neck with the exisiting 9 criteria without adding more...

Local Ordained Ministry will never take off if candidates have to fulfil all 9 and I fear that Pioneer ministry will struggle if it insists on even more.

Mark

Ali Campbell

So when are you getting "done"?

jonny

thanks for the comments... you're right in that i don't give too much away tony! but you have to be a bit diplomatic in these things...

i understand what people are saying - that in an ideal world the criteria would be different and so on. but we are talking about the church of england here. it's easy to forget what a large institution she is and some of the changes taking place would have been unthinkable 5 or 10 years ago. overall i am encouraged. i think this is a move in the right direction. i think that selection conferences for these new candidates will have pioneer ministers on the selection boards and will also be grouped together. once enough people start coming through the system who are a different breed it will be very interesting to see what happens. i suspect we may see the same thing as with the fresh expressions/emerging church - once you create a new set of permissions it will be very difficult to stop things changing. i like rowan williams suggestion that the church gets renewed from the margins and think that this is another step to let the margins renew things.

i have been to recent denominational things in places other than the UK recently. and that made me thank God for what is happening in the church of england. it could be a whole lot worse!

w.r.t theological education it's all up for grabs really. we'll see what happens. various colleges are making bids i think. but modular training (rather than residential) will also open up the market for newcomers i think. two on the block are htb's theology centre and st mary's braunston square - both big charismatic anglican churches in london with the reources to create their own theological schools. i don't see any reason why a bishop couldn't approve re:source as part of someone's training. fresh expressions are developing a series of year long courses that will take place in various locations round the country. of all the colleges at the get together the most equipped and developed in terms of courses to equip people for missional leadership i felt was the church army and possibly cliff college. but it's early days...

as for me getting ordained, several people have suggested it over the years, but i can't see the point... it would enable me to preside at communion but that's it. grace has a very team view of leadership so when we have discussed such notions we have suggested that either we should all get ordained or none of us!!!

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