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great post jonny. i read it making linkages to pete ward's liquid church and his call for us to be 'selling spiritual product.' in other words, that as well as the need to stimulate relational networks, the flow of product - books, proost downloads, websites - are all ways that stimulate (and mess with) connections.


Ben Edson

this is also about catholicity...those alt.worship groups/emerging churches that have no 'connectors' lose some of the importance of catholicity and hence miss one of the four marks of church...the question then is can you be church, as defined by the creeds, with no external connectors?


Ben, this is probably not the place of this, but what happens when we ask your question the other way? Can you be church when you define yourself by the creeds as catholic, yet by your self-definition of catholic (ie Orthodox or Catholic or fundamentalist), exclude others (ie alt.worship) who might be the church?

it seems to me that the marks of catholicity are often used as gatekeepers of status quo,



ben, steve i think both things are probably good instincts to hold together!


oh jonny, you're so irenic


Ben Edson

Creeds do exclude and so there needs to be a generous approach to them, perhaps a desire to grow into the four marks...a small group that meets with no external connections can be church, but perhaps it misses the fullness of being church by not being connected. Creeds were written to exclude so can be unhelpful, but at the same time give definition perhaps something that we need.


Facebook makes you realise this sort of thing quite quickly. Everyone knows everyone and you don't realise just how this works until you see the networks start to build in your friend lists.


thanks for taking the time to form these three posts, jonny. i just finished the book and then read your comments and i'm grateful for the way you framed shirky's ideas for the people of god....and it fits with the spirit of the last post that i'm writing this from kentucky :)
peace to you.

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